Saw those too. Didn't really need it, but was tempted. Small NVMe node on a good network (in NL at least) for absolutely no money at all.
But then I made my mind up and decided not to do it? I wouldn't reward a provider that has an account here, but instead chooses to only sells his promotions in that cesspit.
The problem with LET is that it is no community at all. It's just a device for providers to sell goods and for users to whine about providers. The people who made up the community ar mostly rather here and/or at Hostballs then at LET.
To be fair, the sale by hosthatch was so crazy and labor intensive, I can imagine he could only manage one forum at a time. Then again, LES is much more civil and doesn't spam you with a ticket number 5 nanoseconds after you've submitted the ticket, requesting you to URGENTLY REPLY.
Saw those too. Didn't really need it, but was tempted. Small NVMe node on a good network (in NL at least) for absolutely no money at all.
But then I made my mind up and decided not to do it? I wouldn't reward a provider that has an account here, but instead chooses to only sells his promotions in that cesspit.
The problem with LET is that it is no community at all. It's just a device for providers to sell goods and for users to whine about providers. The people who made up the community ar mostly rather here and/or at Hostballs then at LET.
To be fair, the sale by hosthatch was so crazy and labor intensive, I can imagine he could only manage one forum at a time. Then again, LES is much more civil and doesn't spam you with a ticket number 5 nanoseconds after you've submitted the ticket, requesting you to URGENTLY REPLY.
He could at least post his static offers here, but he didn't do that either. Or split up his flash sales.
Instead he conciously chooses to only sell them at LET. I get it: the sales are good as it's a much larger board. But seeing what kind of people rush to LET around BF... Let's put it mildly: I wouldn't like to share a host node with them.
Saw those too. Didn't really need it, but was tempted. Small NVMe node on a good network (in NL at least) for absolutely no money at all.
But then I made my mind up and decided not to do it? I wouldn't reward a provider that has an account here, but instead chooses to only sells his promotions in that cesspit.
The problem with LET is that it is no community at all. It's just a device for providers to sell goods and for users to whine about providers. The people who made up the community ar mostly rather here and/or at Hostballs then at LET.
To be fair, the sale by hosthatch was so crazy and labor intensive, I can imagine he could only manage one forum at a time. Then again, LES is much more civil and doesn't spam you with a ticket number 5 nanoseconds after you've submitted the ticket, requesting you to URGENTLY REPLY.
He could at least post his static offers here, but he didn't do that either. Or split up his flash sales.
Instead he conciously chooses to only sell them at LET. I get it: the sales are good as it's a much larger board. But seeing what kind of people rush to LET around BF... Let's put it mildly: I wouldn't like to share a host node with them.
Saw those too. Didn't really need it, but was tempted. Small NVMe node on a good network (in NL at least) for absolutely no money at all.
But then I made my mind up and decided not to do it? I wouldn't reward a provider that has an account here, but instead chooses to only sells his promotions in that cesspit.
The problem with LET is that it is no community at all. It's just a device for providers to sell goods and for users to whine about providers. The people who made up the community ar mostly rather here and/or at Hostballs then at LET.
To be fair, the sale by hosthatch was so crazy and labor intensive, I can imagine he could only manage one forum at a time. Then again, LES is much more civil and doesn't spam you with a ticket number 5 nanoseconds after you've submitted the ticket, requesting you to URGENTLY REPLY.
He could at least post his static offers here, but he didn't do that either. Or split up his flash sales.
Instead he conciously chooses to only sell them at LET. I get it: the sales are good as it's a much larger board. But seeing what kind of people rush to LET around BF... Let's put it mildly: I wouldn't like to share a host node with them.
One of the many reason, why we/I don’t want to do “crazy, ultra mega low” deals anymore.
You end up attracting the wrong type of crowd and putting them on the same hostnode as others who actually chose to support us by investing in paying the full amount feels wrong.
Even without the logistical side, morally it feels wrong to offer ultra cheap recurring promos on a daily basis (not just xyz discount for your first invoice or something).
You are essentially cheating your regular clientele. How would one feel if one went to a restaurant, paid $20 for a meal and the next guy walked in got it for $2?
@seriesn said:
You are essentially cheating your regular clientele. How would one feel if one went to a restaurant, paid $20 for a meal and the next guy walked in got it for $2?
This! This is so true, and I'm glad someone finally mentions it.
It always pisses me off when I pay 10-20$ a month for a VPS and I'm a loyal customer, and then the provider offers new customers a better VPS for 3-5$ a month with a bunch of perks that are not available to me. You sell me stuff with a good margin and I happily pay without complaining for years and then the new guy, who is most likely an asshole, gets the good price?
I understand that everyone wants in on the hype that is BF, it's an easy way to attract new customers and increase turnover. But keep in mind that one loyal full-price paying customer that doesn't cause any problems gives more profit and less trouble then 10 or even 20 BF customers that wants everything for free. In the lowend market the margins are close to non-existent, a single ticket from a new customer destroys any chance of making a profit for probably a year or more from that customer.
I know that a lot of people refuses to see it, but I have always said that not every customer is good for business. Sometimes it's actually better to not make the sale.
@seriesn said:
You are essentially cheating your regular clientele. How would one feel if one went to a restaurant, paid $20 for a meal and the next guy walked in got it for $2?
This! This is so true, and I'm glad someone finally mentions it.
It always pisses me off when I pay 10-20$ a month for a VPS and I'm a loyal customer, and then the provider offers new customers a better VPS for 3-5$ a month with a bunch of perks that are not available to me. You sell me stuff with a good margin and I happily pay without complaining for years and then the new guy, who is most likely an asshole, gets the good price?
I understand that everyone wants in on the hype that is BF, it's an easy way to attract new customers and increase turnover. But keep in mind that one loyal full-price paying customer that doesn't cause any problems gives more profit and less trouble then 10 or even 20 BF customers that wants everything for free. In the lowend market the margins are close to non-existent, a single ticket from a new customer destroys any chance of making a profit for probably a year or more from that customer.
I know that a lot of people refuses to see it, but I have always said that not every customer is good for business. Sometimes it's actually better to not make the sale.
It always bothers me (not just in LE but anything to do with sales) that how an existing client is always treated as a 2nd class citizen. It is like that "Gotcha" moment. This is just not "consumer" friendly at all. Years in retail, I always hated that attitude and there's a reason why we push all the best things to our existing family members, because that's the right thing to do.
@seriesn said: It always bothers me (not just in LE but anything to do with sales) that how an existing client is always treated as a 2nd class citizen. It is like that "Gotcha" moment. This is just not "consumer" friendly at all.
while is very true, one have to admit that @hosthatch is one of the very few providers who allowed his existing clients a discount on top of new purchases for not cancelling old ones or even free upgrades to comparable newer plans.
there are barely any other providers who allow that but instead the rule of thumb on most sales is: no upgrade, you can cancel your old one and kindly f*ck off.
It just costs more to attract new customers, than it does to keep the old ones. That's the way it is, the way people are.
You can cry about it, as an "old loyal customer". Or just be happy for getting a good quality service - that does what's needed to stay afloat, including acquiring new customers - at discount prices.
"2nd class citizen"? You don't get worse technical support after your first year with a hosting company.
Depending on how we look at things - every discount could be labeled unfair using your logic. Why should anyone, any time, pay more/less. But that's not how it works.
Having said all that - if a company doesn't strive to grow, it makes perfect sense to give good old customers discounts (to help keep them), and sell at regular price to any new customers. Hell - one could even keep stats on the yearly number of tech. support requests and resource usage - then calculate discounts based on that.
@bikegremlin said: "2nd class citizen"? You don't get worse technical support after your first year with a hosting company.
Ahh see sir, I always somehow fail to express myself clearly. (This usually happens with companies who are more aggressive, with sales or usual LE* hosts thread that we see on the communities)
Presales ticket: Hey, I want to join, what can you do.
Response: I will bend over backward to get you join. Here's a promo code. Here's a customized deal.
That's what I meant with 2nd class citizens. Yeap yeap, growth is key and promos are based on "I have this revenue coming in, so I can make changes here and there and take a hit on certain things". It is catch 22 tbh. Definitely no such thing as a perfect solution.
I agree with a lot of this in principle, but if I am being honest, I don't think any of it really counts on BF/CM, everyone knows its coming once a year, everyone knows that's when you get the best deals, no one truly expects those prices to remain year-round, by asking for a price match on a product you bought in June, that's just not reasonable during black Friday to the very core of the origins of Black Friday.
I mean, I do get it, from a consumer perspective, who does not like a free lunch, but from a commercial perspective surely you understand that expecting year-round price matches is commercial suicide?
I genuinely don't know what is going on with HostHatch, time will tell.
I think next year I may just take what I now believe to be the best approach which was demonstrated by @Clouvider, just free credit vouchers for new services (note not just for new customers), If you like it you will stay or at least you will remember your experience, no one loses.
Sure it is not as exciting, but racing to the lowest deal often ends in mysery.
@AnthonySmith said:
I agree with a lot of this in principle, but if I am being honest, I don't think any of it really counts on BF/CM, everyone knows its coming once a year, everyone knows that's when you get the best deals, no one truly expects those prices to remain year-round, by asking for a price match on a product you bought in June, that's just not reasonable during black Friday to the very core of the origins of Black Friday.
I would agree of we were talking some retail price dumping of one-time purchases, but what annoys me is the recurring price offers.
I have no problem if retail dumps TV's for half price on BF, that's a one time deal and the profit/loss is easy to calculate. The thing that bugs me is the providers that seems to dump recurring prices to insane levels just to get customers, even at a loss, and then lets the "regular" customers pay the price.
But then again I'm Swedish so I don't get this whole BF hype anyway. Yes, it's starting to become a thing here too, but it's not even close to the insanity it seems to be in many other countries. Not yet anyway.
I am seriously looking at moving many VPS's to Nexusbytes based solely on the statements made by @seriesn in this thread. I think it is the first time I have ever heard a provider talking about caring for existing customers more then making new ones. I really don't care if the services are perfect or not, I just feel that a mindset like that should be rewarded.
He could at least post his static offers here, but he didn't do that either. Or split up his flash sales.
Instead he conciously chooses to only sell them at LET. I get it: the sales are good as it's a much larger board. But seeing what kind of people rush to LET around BF... Let's put it mildly: I wouldn't like to share a host node with them.
I have nothing personal against this or any other community. I had a very busy year and whatever extra time I had, I spent on building my health back up again after 2 years of not caring about it. I was not very active on any communities, and my activity on LET was very low too.
It would be a dick move to not be active here all year round, and then simply come on Black Friday only to sell something.
Sorry that you feel this way and let me know if there is anything I can do to change your mind.
If you want me to take a side between LET and LES - then sorry, that won't be happening.
Yeah I get that, you are right it is not 'quite' the same when it is a one time purchase, but you have to keep in mind, things change, for example, last year the hardware I was primarily backing was E3's with 64GB RAM, the disks alone cost me $1000 each, this year there are faster CPU's with more cores and 128GB Ram and the same disks cost me $500 each.
That is in part why I am able to do better deals year on year but last years hardware is still in service and has a higher cost, as people leave that service I reduce and replace, that is just the economy of the LE world in this industry.
Aside from that, I don't need to do BF sales, frankly, I get involved because I was under the impression people liked them once a year, people will be talking about waiting for November in January 2021.
For me, I like to blow out any remaining stock at the end of each year, even if it is dirt cheap, even if it is at cost, then I know where I stand and know what to plan for.
That said I think next year taking that feedback into account, I think it will just be free service credit tokens, open to all customers, past and present, for any new services. feels like balance.
He could at least post his static offers here, but he didn't do that either. Or split up his flash sales.
Instead he conciously chooses to only sell them at LET. I get it: the sales are good as it's a much larger board. But seeing what kind of people rush to LET around BF... Let's put it mildly: I wouldn't like to share a host node with them.
I have nothing personal against this or any other community. I had a very busy year and whatever extra time I had, I spent on building my health back up again after 2 years of not caring about it. I was not very active on any communities, and my activity on LET was very low too.
It would be a dick move to not be active here all year round, and then simply come on Black Friday only to sell something.
Sorry that you feel this way and let me know if there is anything I can do to change your mind.
If you want me to take a side between LET and LES - then sorry, that won't be happening.
I genuinely don't know what is going on with HostHatch, time will tell.
10 years in business this coming April. Thanks
Nice, well, Inception Hosting will hit 10 years in January, I would not hit 11 if I sold at your prices but you are on a different scale I suppose so it is what it is, I don't mean any offence, but your prices naturally, shock.
Saw those too. Didn't really need it, but was tempted. Small NVMe node on a good network (in NL at least) for absolutely no money at all.
But then I made my mind up and decided not to do it? I wouldn't reward a provider that has an account here, but instead chooses to only sells his promotions in that cesspit.
The problem with LET is that it is no community at all. It's just a device for providers to sell goods and for users to whine about providers. The people who made up the community ar mostly rather here and/or at Hostballs then at LET.
To be fair, the sale by hosthatch was so crazy and labor intensive, I can imagine he could only manage one forum at a time. Then again, LES is much more civil and doesn't spam you with a ticket number 5 nanoseconds after you've submitted the ticket, requesting you to URGENTLY REPLY.
He could at least post his static offers here, but he didn't do that either. Or split up his flash sales.
Instead he conciously chooses to only sell them at LET. I get it: the sales are good as it's a much larger board. But seeing what kind of people rush to LET around BF... Let's put it mildly: I wouldn't like to share a host node with them.
Wait, you think LET users and LES users would be on different nodes? There's just no logic there but to get in a snobby insult.
For the record I was on LET for almost 7-8 years. Now when I look at the prices and the direction LET is headed I prefer LES.
I have a question though, before Colo crossing bulldozed LET there was a profile named Spirit & I'm wondering if it was actually Anthony Spirit left LET in protest for a reason which was never made public but I remember all his posts disappeared as well or something like that. Spirit was a moderator back then and I missed his balanced approach. I think he wasn't happy with colocrossing making and using small hosts as a front but I maybe wrong.
@raza19 said: Spirit left LET in protest for a reason which was never made public but I remember all his posts disappeared as well or something like that. Spirit was a moderator back then and I missed his balanced approach. I think he wasn't happy with colocrossing making and using small hosts as a front but I maybe wrong.
It was made public, I got rid of him, it is all water under the bridge now but I had a good reason at the time.
His protest was to delete his posts/account before being removed.
@AnthonySmith said:
I agree with a lot of this in principle, but if I am being honest, I don't think any of it really counts on BF/CM, everyone knows its coming once a year, everyone knows that's when you get the best deals, no one truly expects those prices to remain year-round, by asking for a price match on a product you bought in June, that's just not reasonable during black Friday to the very core of the origins of Black Friday.
I would agree of we were talking some retail price dumping of one-time purchases, but what annoys me is the recurring price offers.
I have no problem if retail dumps TV's for half price on BF, that's a one time deal and the profit/loss is easy to calculate. The thing that bugs me is the providers that seems to dump recurring prices to insane levels just to get customers, even at a loss, and then lets the "regular" customers pay the price.
But then again I'm Swedish so I don't get this whole BF hype anyway. Yes, it's starting to become a thing here too, but it's not even close to the insanity it seems to be in many other countries. Not yet anyway.
I am seriously looking at moving many VPS's to Nexusbytes based solely on the statements made by @seriesn in this thread. I think it is the first time I have ever heard a provider talking about caring for existing customers more then making new ones. I really don't care if the services are perfect or not, I just feel that a mindset like that should be rewarded.
@AnthonySmith said:
I agree with a lot of this in principle, but if I am being honest, I don't think any of it really counts on BF/CM, everyone knows its coming once a year, everyone knows that's when you get the best deals, no one truly expects those prices to remain year-round, by asking for a price match on a product you bought in June, that's just not reasonable during black Friday to the very core of the origins of Black Friday.
I would agree of we were talking some retail price dumping of one-time purchases, but what annoys me is the recurring price offers.
I have no problem if retail dumps TV's for half price on BF, that's a one time deal and the profit/loss is easy to calculate. The thing that bugs me is the providers that seems to dump recurring prices to insane levels just to get customers, even at a loss, and then lets the "regular" customers pay the price.
Lower prices for new customers doesn't mean a provider doesn't care. Nor do lower prices for the old ones necessarily mean they care. It's business.
Recurring discounts with lots of new customers can be used - similarly to even lifetime sales - as a boost in liquid funds, instead of using a bank loan or something similar. It can also be used as a marketing. Getting more customers, then, if your service is good, use the word of mouth.
I run a small, hobby bicycle shop. And in fact do just the opposite - only old customers get good discounts. But that's because I don't want to grow. I also do make it friendly and personal. But that's because I've got only about a few hundreds of regular customers - not thousands. That is not a way to make a lot of money - it's what I'd call crazy.
Web hosting is tough and competitive. And, price wise, it is in many terms a race to the bottom. One example of recurring disounts is the hosting provider I mostly use now - HostMantis. The only reason I got on board was a really crazy discount. And it's a recurring one (so they practically work with no profit from me). Both were reasons for me to give it a try (nothing to loose, and looked very good). The number of times I've recommended that hosting, after having given it a try - huge! They did get a lot of "free marketing".
But then again I'm Swedish so I don't get this whole BF hype anyway. Yes, it's starting to become a thing here too, but it's not even close to the insanity it seems to be in many other countries. Not yet anyway.
I'm Yugoslav, living in Serbia, and while I've always been "pro West" to a great extent, I never got that copying of the American holidays. For now, we have "imported":
Black Friday
Haloween
Valentine's day
Those things didn't exist here when I was a kid, and growing up!
I'm now just waiting for people here to start celebrating Thanksgiving, and Independence Day.
I am seriously looking at moving many VPS's to Nexusbytes based solely on the statements made by @seriesn in this thread. I think it is the first time I have ever heard a provider talking about caring for existing customers more then making new ones. I really don't care if the services are perfect or not, I just feel that a mindset like that should be rewarded.
Whatever makes you feel good. Most of my customers share similar mind set. I enjoy that. But I can tell 1st hand that it's not a way to grow a big business, nor make a lot of money. And those things are important for providing customers with long term service (if you go bancrupt, or live in poverty, it doesn't really help anyone).
@Freek said:
I must admit I visited LET yesterday for the Hosthatch BF deals, but apart from that I never visited it anymore in the past 2-3 years.
The vibe is just different there. I feel there's a lack of mutual respect, especially between users and providers. For example, yesterday I did not submit my order because the pricing was different from what was shown within the offer and by the time it was corrected, it was sold out. Immediately I get responses like 'just order and don't pay the invoice' etc. That's not how life works imho and especially with German providers, you are going to have a bad time. I feel the focus over there is to squeeze out the last penny at all cost. Bigger resource numbers = better, even if the node is massively oversold. No thanks, I rather enjoy a smaller, friendly and warm community over here.
@hosthatch I suspect you are referring to my post I quoted above, because this is the only recent post I could find mentioning hosthatch and 'overselling', correct? If so, there's been a misunderstanding. Reading back, I do agree that my sentence is a bit wonky, so please allow me to clarify; I was trying to state that I feel over at LET, in general (so not directed towards you/hosthatch), the first priority is bigger resource numbers, the second priority is node stability, i.e. the level of overselling, from the perspective of the customer.
My apologies if this felt as an insult towards you, that was never my intention. English is not my first language and we Dutchies tend to be very 'direct'. I hope this clears the air
This is getting silly, everyone take a step back and a deep breath when did the world get so damn sensitive?
This is blown out of all proportion. @hosthatch offers insane prices like probably the most insane anyone has ever seen on a BF sale from a reputable host, I have to assume they know the prices offered were bonkers (in a good way and by design).
A the conversation had already been going about virmach past offers and how crazy people got about them, I made an insensitive joke about host hatch being the new virmach because that is what they did a few years back and no one has stopped talking about it since, then out of silliness as the conversation continued it moved to racknerd because they started offering silly prices.
It was just a stupid not being a serious conversation, that obviously got your back up @hosthatch I am sorry it caused a problem, I really am.
You have then gone on to take the fact that I said if I sold at those prices I would be closed in a year as a further insult after I acknowledged you are at a completely different scale, and that was what i meant, Inception hosting is not a big business compared to HH nore would I even consider myself a competitor.
Sorry this all got way out of proportion from the intention, please don't see it as an attack it is not intended as one.
That is all I have to say on the matter if you can't accept that I understand, but I won't keep grovelling, I suspect you have taken a ton of abuse over the sales weekend, 99% of it not from here and are understandably pissed off, I am sorry I added to that unintentionally.
Hopefully, that draws a line under it, if you want me to redact or change any of my posts just shoot me the link.
@AlSwearengen said:
Wait, you think LET users and LES users would be on different nodes? There's just no logic there but to get in a snobby insult.
Please help me. Where do I say that? I was aiming this at the people that rush to LET on BF/CM. Saying that I'd rather not share a node with them. And that's true. That's why I'm very careful with offers that literally get trampled by these kind of folks.
@hosthatch said: It would be a dick move to not be active here all year round, and then simply come on Black Friday only to sell something.
That's fair. But that shouldn't mean you'd just forget that there is another community.
@hosthatch said:Sorry that you feel this way and let me know if there is anything I can do to change your mind.
Well, you could give me a lifetime free VM... Nah, just kidding. I know Hosthatch is a quality provider. But I'd always pick a provider that's active in this community too. We're good people. And as I said above, seeing the kind of people in your offer thread on LET made me even less likely to take on a deal. But that's nothing you can do about I guess.
@hosthatch said:If you want me to take a side between LET and LES - then sorry, that won't be happening.
Neither am I suggesting that you do. All providers that I use are both active at LET and LES.
You are essentially cheating your regular clientele. How would one feel if one went to a restaurant, paid $20 for a meal and the next guy walked in got it for $2?
Totally agreed. I guess we are talking about different business modules here. (First-degree / Second-degree / Third-degree price discrimination)
Your above example does exist - and people either do not know or don't mind. What is it? Air fare is one of the examples.
Before COVID, I used to fly like hell. If there is an urgent meeting that I need to attend tomorrow, even an economy ticket between Hong Kong and Singapore was at > HKD $6000 (vs normally not over $3000), I still had to take. Well.. .. I don't care.... even if the folk sitting next to me paid only $1800, I don't give a ________. Not only because it was paid by the company, the actual reason was I only had 1 clear goal - get to the destination. I don't care if I were having the same meal with the folk sitting next to me, whose fare was much lower.
But VPS is another thing - The capacity will last for months or years..... We need long-term performance..... if you have a noisy neighbour.... the customers payung higher price would not be happy.
@swat4 said: if you have a noisy neighbour.... the customers payung higher price would not be happy.
Does it matter if your noise neighbour paid full price or not? That's the same logic of "I don't need to respect rules because I can afford to pay the fines/penalties".
I don't mind sharing a node with users that paid less than I did. As long as everyone behaves that's fine with me. You win some, you lose some. It's part of the game.
Offers are a provider's strategic decision at that point in time. Maybe it has spare capacity that he/she would like to fill. Maybe it's part of its Marketing budget to launch a new location or product line.
You can't also forget obsolescence. When you buy into a new product line, the provider had an upfront cost that it needs to cover and you'd be running on new hardware. Fiver years down the line the hardware is paid up and the hardware is not new anymore. Would you pay the same for the same product? Would you pay the same for a server on a Xeon X5000 now than you'd have paid 5yrs ago? Clients in that server may have paid a higher price.
There is no right or wrong view. It's interesting to be able to have a civilised conversation without going into a flame war. Thank you for giving us this space @AnthonySmith.
@beagle said: There is no right or wrong view. It's interesting to be able to have a civilised conversation without going into a flame war. Thank you for giving us this space @AnthonySmith.
there is for sure a perfect answer that works for everyone individually, both buyers and sellers, however, it is literally impossible for those answers to work at the same time
No worries, next year I am charging for use of the space though.
Comments
To be fair, the sale by hosthatch was so crazy and labor intensive, I can imagine he could only manage one forum at a time. Then again, LES is much more civil and doesn't spam you with a ticket number 5 nanoseconds after you've submitted the ticket, requesting you to URGENTLY REPLY.
He could at least post his static offers here, but he didn't do that either. Or split up his flash sales.
Instead he conciously chooses to only sell them at LET. I get it: the sales are good as it's a much larger board. But seeing what kind of people rush to LET around BF... Let's put it mildly: I wouldn't like to share a host node with them.
Fair point, I agree with you on that one
For what it matters, half of those are done by the person and other 2/3rd is done by 3 shill accounts that popped outta no where.
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One of the many reason, why we/I don’t want to do “crazy, ultra mega low” deals anymore.
You end up attracting the wrong type of crowd and putting them on the same hostnode as others who actually chose to support us by investing in paying the full amount feels wrong.
Even without the logistical side, morally it feels wrong to offer ultra cheap recurring promos on a daily basis (not just xyz discount for your first invoice or something).
You are essentially cheating your regular clientele. How would one feel if one went to a restaurant, paid $20 for a meal and the next guy walked in got it for $2?
Nexus Bytes Ryzen Powered NVMe VPS | NYC|Miami|LA|London|Netherlands| Singapore|Tokyo
Storage VPS | LiteSpeed Powered Web Hosting + SSH access | Switcher Special |
Did someone say I'd get a steak for $2 ?!?
This! This is so true, and I'm glad someone finally mentions it.
It always pisses me off when I pay 10-20$ a month for a VPS and I'm a loyal customer, and then the provider offers new customers a better VPS for 3-5$ a month with a bunch of perks that are not available to me. You sell me stuff with a good margin and I happily pay without complaining for years and then the new guy, who is most likely an asshole, gets the good price?
I understand that everyone wants in on the hype that is BF, it's an easy way to attract new customers and increase turnover. But keep in mind that one loyal full-price paying customer that doesn't cause any problems gives more profit and less trouble then 10 or even 20 BF customers that wants everything for free. In the lowend market the margins are close to non-existent, a single ticket from a new customer destroys any chance of making a profit for probably a year or more from that customer.
I know that a lot of people refuses to see it, but I have always said that not every customer is good for business. Sometimes it's actually better to not make the sale.
Dollar tree bro!
It always bothers me (not just in LE but anything to do with sales) that how an existing client is always treated as a 2nd class citizen. It is like that "Gotcha" moment. This is just not "consumer" friendly at all. Years in retail, I always hated that attitude and there's a reason why we push all the best things to our existing family members, because that's the right thing to do.
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while is very true, one have to admit that @hosthatch is one of the very few providers who allowed his existing clients a discount on top of new purchases for not cancelling old ones or even free upgrades to comparable newer plans.
there are barely any other providers who allow that but instead the rule of thumb on most sales is: no upgrade, you can cancel your old one and kindly f*ck off.
It just costs more to attract new customers, than it does to keep the old ones. That's the way it is, the way people are.
You can cry about it, as an "old loyal customer". Or just be happy for getting a good quality service - that does what's needed to stay afloat, including acquiring new customers - at discount prices.
"2nd class citizen"? You don't get worse technical support after your first year with a hosting company.
Depending on how we look at things - every discount could be labeled unfair using your logic. Why should anyone, any time, pay more/less. But that's not how it works.
Having said all that - if a company doesn't strive to grow, it makes perfect sense to give good old customers discounts (to help keep them), and sell at regular price to any new customers. Hell - one could even keep stats on the yearly number of tech. support requests and resource usage - then calculate discounts based on that.
BikeGremlin I/O
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Ahh see sir, I always somehow fail to express myself clearly. (This usually happens with companies who are more aggressive, with sales or usual LE* hosts thread that we see on the communities)
That's what I meant with 2nd class citizens. Yeap yeap, growth is key and promos are based on "I have this revenue coming in, so I can make changes here and there and take a hit on certain things". It is catch 22 tbh. Definitely no such thing as a perfect solution.
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I agree with a lot of this in principle, but if I am being honest, I don't think any of it really counts on BF/CM, everyone knows its coming once a year, everyone knows that's when you get the best deals, no one truly expects those prices to remain year-round, by asking for a price match on a product you bought in June, that's just not reasonable during black Friday to the very core of the origins of Black Friday.
I mean, I do get it, from a consumer perspective, who does not like a free lunch, but from a commercial perspective surely you understand that expecting year-round price matches is commercial suicide?
I genuinely don't know what is going on with HostHatch, time will tell.
I think next year I may just take what I now believe to be the best approach which was demonstrated by @Clouvider, just free credit vouchers for new services (note not just for new customers), If you like it you will stay or at least you will remember your experience, no one loses.
Sure it is not as exciting, but racing to the lowest deal often ends in mysery.
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I would agree of we were talking some retail price dumping of one-time purchases, but what annoys me is the recurring price offers.
I have no problem if retail dumps TV's for half price on BF, that's a one time deal and the profit/loss is easy to calculate. The thing that bugs me is the providers that seems to dump recurring prices to insane levels just to get customers, even at a loss, and then lets the "regular" customers pay the price.
But then again I'm Swedish so I don't get this whole BF hype anyway. Yes, it's starting to become a thing here too, but it's not even close to the insanity it seems to be in many other countries. Not yet anyway.
I am seriously looking at moving many VPS's to Nexusbytes based solely on the statements made by @seriesn in this thread. I think it is the first time I have ever heard a provider talking about caring for existing customers more then making new ones. I really don't care if the services are perfect or not, I just feel that a mindset like that should be rewarded.
I have nothing personal against this or any other community. I had a very busy year and whatever extra time I had, I spent on building my health back up again after 2 years of not caring about it. I was not very active on any communities, and my activity on LET was very low too.
It would be a dick move to not be active here all year round, and then simply come on Black Friday only to sell something.
Sorry that you feel this way and let me know if there is anything I can do to change your mind.
If you want me to take a side between LET and LES - then sorry, that won't be happening.
10 years in business this coming April. Thanks
Yeah I get that, you are right it is not 'quite' the same when it is a one time purchase, but you have to keep in mind, things change, for example, last year the hardware I was primarily backing was E3's with 64GB RAM, the disks alone cost me $1000 each, this year there are faster CPU's with more cores and 128GB Ram and the same disks cost me $500 each.
That is in part why I am able to do better deals year on year but last years hardware is still in service and has a higher cost, as people leave that service I reduce and replace, that is just the economy of the LE world in this industry.
Aside from that, I don't need to do BF sales, frankly, I get involved because I was under the impression people liked them once a year, people will be talking about waiting for November in January 2021.
For me, I like to blow out any remaining stock at the end of each year, even if it is dirt cheap, even if it is at cost, then I know where I stand and know what to plan for.
That said I think next year taking that feedback into account, I think it will just be free service credit tokens, open to all customers, past and present, for any new services. feels like balance.
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Nice, well, Inception Hosting will hit 10 years in January, I would not hit 11 if I sold at your prices
but you are on a different scale I suppose so it is what it is, I don't mean any offence, but your prices naturally, shock.
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Wait, you think LET users and LES users would be on different nodes? There's just no logic there but to get in a snobby insult.
Doesn't feel that way when you are comparing me to someone who ran away with people's money on that other thread - but sure.
For the record I was on LET for almost 7-8 years. Now when I look at the prices and the direction LET is headed I prefer LES.
I have a question though, before Colo crossing bulldozed LET there was a profile named Spirit & I'm wondering if it was actually Anthony
Spirit left LET in protest for a reason which was never made public but I remember all his posts disappeared as well or something like that. Spirit was a moderator back then and I missed his balanced approach. I think he wasn't happy with colocrossing making and using small hosts as a front but I maybe wrong.
It was made public, I got rid of him, it is all water under the bridge now but I had a good reason at the time.
His protest was to delete his posts/account before being removed.
Thank you sir.
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Lower prices for new customers doesn't mean a provider doesn't care. Nor do lower prices for the old ones necessarily mean they care. It's business.
Recurring discounts with lots of new customers can be used - similarly to even lifetime sales - as a boost in liquid funds, instead of using a bank loan or something similar. It can also be used as a marketing. Getting more customers, then, if your service is good, use the word of mouth.
I run a small, hobby bicycle shop. And in fact do just the opposite - only old customers get good discounts. But that's because I don't want to grow. I also do make it friendly and personal. But that's because I've got only about a few hundreds of regular customers - not thousands. That is not a way to make a lot of money - it's what I'd call crazy.
Web hosting is tough and competitive. And, price wise, it is in many terms a race to the bottom. One example of recurring disounts is the hosting provider I mostly use now - HostMantis. The only reason I got on board was a really crazy discount. And it's a recurring one (so they practically work with no profit from me). Both were reasons for me to give it a try (nothing to loose, and looked very good). The number of times I've recommended that hosting, after having given it a try - huge! They did get a lot of "free marketing".
I'm Yugoslav, living in Serbia, and while I've always been "pro West" to a great extent, I never got that copying of the American holidays. For now, we have "imported":
Those things didn't exist here when I was a kid, and growing up!
I'm now just waiting for people here to start celebrating Thanksgiving, and Independence Day.
Whatever makes you feel good. Most of my customers share similar mind set. I enjoy that. But I can tell 1st hand that it's not a way to grow a big business, nor make a lot of money. And those things are important for providing customers with long term service (if you go bancrupt, or live in poverty, it doesn't really help anyone).
BikeGremlin I/O
Mostly WordPress ™
I said you are the new virmach, they still exist.
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@hosthatch I suspect you are referring to my post I quoted above, because this is the only recent post I could find mentioning hosthatch and 'overselling', correct? If so, there's been a misunderstanding. Reading back, I do agree that my sentence is a bit wonky, so please allow me to clarify; I was trying to state that I feel over at LET, in general (so not directed towards you/hosthatch), the first priority is bigger resource numbers, the second priority is node stability, i.e. the level of overselling, from the perspective of the customer.
My apologies if this felt as an insult towards you, that was never my intention. English is not my first language and we Dutchies tend to be very 'direct'. I hope this clears the air
This is getting silly, everyone take a step back and a deep breath when did the world get so damn sensitive?
This is blown out of all proportion. @hosthatch offers insane prices like probably the most insane anyone has ever seen on a BF sale from a reputable host, I have to assume they know the prices offered were bonkers (in a good way and by design).
A the conversation had already been going about virmach past offers and how crazy people got about them, I made an insensitive joke about host hatch being the new virmach because that is what they did a few years back and no one has stopped talking about it since, then out of silliness as the conversation continued it moved to racknerd because they started offering silly prices.
It was just a stupid not being a serious conversation, that obviously got your back up @hosthatch I am sorry it caused a problem, I really am.
You have then gone on to take the fact that I said if I sold at those prices I would be closed in a year as a further insult after I acknowledged you are at a completely different scale, and that was what i meant, Inception hosting is not a big business compared to HH nore would I even consider myself a competitor.
Sorry this all got way out of proportion from the intention, please don't see it as an attack it is not intended as one.
That is all I have to say on the matter if you can't accept that I understand, but I won't keep grovelling, I suspect you have taken a ton of abuse over the sales weekend, 99% of it not from here and are understandably pissed off, I am sorry I added to that unintentionally.
Hopefully, that draws a line under it, if you want me to redact or change any of my posts just shoot me the link.
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Please help me. Where do I say that? I was aiming this at the people that rush to LET on BF/CM. Saying that I'd rather not share a node with them. And that's true. That's why I'm very careful with offers that literally get trampled by these kind of folks.
That's fair. But that shouldn't mean you'd just forget that there is another community.
Well, you could give me a lifetime free VM... Nah, just kidding. I know Hosthatch is a quality provider. But I'd always pick a provider that's active in this community too. We're good people. And as I said above, seeing the kind of people in your offer thread on LET made me even less likely to take on a deal. But that's nothing you can do about I guess.
Neither am I suggesting that you do. All providers that I use are both active at LET and LES.
Totally agreed. I guess we are talking about different business modules here. (First-degree / Second-degree / Third-degree price discrimination)
Your above example does exist - and people either do not know or don't mind. What is it? Air fare is one of the examples.
Before COVID, I used to fly like hell. If there is an urgent meeting that I need to attend tomorrow, even an economy ticket between Hong Kong and Singapore was at > HKD $6000 (vs normally not over $3000), I still had to take. Well.. .. I don't care.... even if the folk sitting next to me paid only $1800, I don't give a ________. Not only because it was paid by the company, the actual reason was I only had 1 clear goal - get to the destination. I don't care if I were having the same meal with the folk sitting next to me, whose fare was much lower.
But VPS is another thing - The capacity will last for months or years..... We need long-term performance..... if you have a noisy neighbour.... the customers payung higher price would not be happy.
Does it matter if your noise neighbour paid full price or not? That's the same logic of "I don't need to respect rules because I can afford to pay the fines/penalties".
I don't mind sharing a node with users that paid less than I did. As long as everyone behaves that's fine with me. You win some, you lose some. It's part of the game.
Offers are a provider's strategic decision at that point in time. Maybe it has spare capacity that he/she would like to fill. Maybe it's part of its Marketing budget to launch a new location or product line.
You can't also forget obsolescence. When you buy into a new product line, the provider had an upfront cost that it needs to cover and you'd be running on new hardware. Fiver years down the line the hardware is paid up and the hardware is not new anymore. Would you pay the same for the same product? Would you pay the same for a server on a Xeon X5000 now than you'd have paid 5yrs ago? Clients in that server may have paid a higher price.
There is no right or wrong view. It's interesting to be able to have a civilised conversation without going into a flame war. Thank you for giving us this space @AnthonySmith.
there is for sure a perfect answer that works for everyone individually, both buyers and sellers, however, it is literally impossible for those answers to work at the same time
No worries, next year I am charging for use of the space though.
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... at a special BF rate I hope