Do you feel, we would need hosting related services as well, probably a tag called saas (Software as a Service)
For example, I use the following(and most use them), they are not shared/vps hosting providers but see a lot of related offers and requests on this forum(and the old one), we could initially limit the categories to the following as they are mostly hosting industry related.
@corey said:
I think we should highly suggest people go through a third party site that specializes in freelancer work to hire these freelancers. There are so many benefits of those sites.
As someone who freelances for a living: I absolutely would not ever use any of these sites again. Their cut is insane, they place severe restrictions on how you can do your work (in terms of communication and such), they're 100% built around the lowest price and quality is pretty much not a factor (which means you're always in a race to the bottom), and they are generally designed to trap freelancers in their system, by disallowing off-site communication and such. These sites are highly exploitative.
You basically can't make a living off these sites unless you live in a country with tiny living expenses and no legal protections.
Noone said you had to make a living off these sites. I'm just saying I would suggest anyone to use these sites with a new freelancer they haven't worked with before. The communication offsite and the race to the bottom is completely irrelevant here because you already met on lowendspirit and agreed to terms here. I'm simply begging people to use the platform so they don't get scammed. Build a relationship with a freelancer before you let loose.
If a potential customer asked me to work through such a site, my answer would be "thanks, but no thanks". The only "benefit" of such a site in terms of not-getting-scammed would be the escrow service, which is useless if you're going to be communicating off-site, since they will only take into consideration whatever has been said through the site. And if I can't communicate off-site, I can't do my work properly.
If getting scammed is your concern, either look for an independent escrow service (that will actually review off-site communications, if needed), or just figure out a payment scheme where the risk is limited for both sides. Freelancing sites really aren't going to improve matters here, and they introduce entirely too much bullshit that I personally would not even consider dealing with.
That's not true. I talk to all of my freelancers outside of those sites, because it is required to communicate with our team on our company chat platform. I also used the evidence from the outside chat program when a freelancer tried to screw me by billing extra saying I agreed to it and they took it into account when deciding in my favor.
Why would I look for an independent escrow service when there are freelance sites that already specialize in this and give me way more insight into the actual work being done? Also, why would you be so against working on one of those sites if the employer is paying all of the fees? I don't require my freelancers to work through those sites indefinitely, when they gain my trust I allow them to track their time on their own and bill me for it.
When I was a freelancer there were several employers I worked for that did it this way as well. I had some very good jobs through there and I never 'raced to the bottom'.
seriesn said: And the reason is, only because LEA had $7 rule is how all these company figured out a way to offer more and more for the same pricing. So while not be as intense as $7/hour but a maximum limit of let's say $20/project can be applied.
The problem is that while hosting services are essentially a commodity product and so benefit from economies of scale, the same is not true for tailored work. There just isn't a lot of room to cut rates without cutting serious corners on quality, because everybody has a finite number of hours in a day, and certain fixed costs of living.
To put it into perspective: even if a 'project' only took 1 hour of someone's time (and that's almost never the case, when you take into account the discussion of requirements etc.), $20 would, after taxes, already be below minimum wage in a decent chunk of Europe. And minimum wage is often too low for people to reasonably pay their living expenses.
The economics just don't work the same as for commodity products, where you can decrease cost by selling more of an essentially-infinite supply, automate work away, and so on.
I agree to disagree. Granted that $ amount was just an example and by no mean, a set standard, we also have to take into account that, not every freelancer's work quality equals yours. Minimum wages might be higher in some places, while lower in some.
What I meant by limiting was, certain stuff, such as node migration, can be done with 1 single script and might not require any manual intervention and setting a standard price point would be more beneficial to the community and once again, a dev doesn't have to offer all for less and should be available for custom quote, at the same time (Just like we all have higher packages on our website that we don't promote here), there should be an entry price point that would also limit "overcharging" for average quality of work. I mean, this is a budget conscious community after all.
Do you feel, we would need hosting related services as well, probably a tag called saas (Software as a Service)
For example, I use the following(and most use them), they are not shared/vps hosting providers but see a lot of related offers and requests on this forum(and the old one), we could initially limit the categories to the following as they are mostly hosting industry related.
Mailing solutions (mxRoute, now smallweb)
Monitoring tools (Hetrix)
Customer Live chat solutions (Intercom etc)
Hosting panels (CyberPanel etc)
Backup solutions (Tarnsnap etc)
VPN/Proxy Services
Yes maybe, taking things one day at a time around here but that did come up (just today twice).
@everyone I think it sis pretty obvious that this is not something we are going to get common ground on across 100% of the user base, but lets just let it play out a little, if it add's no value and is in any way detrimental (tangibly) it will be removed.
I appreciate some people like safety nets for their safety nets and check 3 times but I tend to not let 'what might happen' stop me from trying something when there is a potential benefit with relatively low risk.
I know there are plenty of sites out there for free lance work but you are not likely to go to fiverr or odesk to find a support agent or someone to write a simple bash script for you, also as I said this means that people who offer training and development for example can post adverts here that people may well genuinely be interested in if I am wrong, this will fail and I will remove it, no big deal.
As I said I will tweak it as we go and as required, maybe a maximum price for adverts but not for requests however I figured by restricting it to a single advert per month that was some balance.
Asking a freelancer who's effort is based on time not resource to put a fixed price on something seems impossible to manage because their are so many different things that could be and it gets so granular.
A logo - $7 total?, $7 per/hour? $50?
A perl script - $7, per/hour, per line, per function, what if it is actually an entire app with a UI based in perl, still max $50 even though it could take 100 hours minimum?
Or are people suggesting we simply limit the market place and by extension what offers can ever sensibly be made, would you not rather let it play out for a few months, see all the "I knew that would happen" and "ooh loop hole" and "we cant have that" and "that is amazing" events happen and make an educated rule set around it from that?
I am not trying to say I am absolutely right on any of this for the record, just part of the conversation.
I think attempting to apply a rate limit early on would just stifle a vast amount of potential out of it and dictate an insane race to the bottom as discussed earlier that would make the system mostly worthless for projects larger then the smallest of things.
The way i would do it would have some form of vetting so that the tag is atleast somewhat "trusted" with a requirement to maintain some level of activity or it would be revoked.
Joepie91 is great but he should charge a lot more than he does ;-). Overall nothing against this in principle but I figure this audience is way too cheap for freelancing here to be worthwhile. I see huge amounts of money going to products that are not so impressive and that seems a lot more promising from the dev side. I once floated the idea of a bunch of hosts getting together to fund development of a new control panel though, and basically it's not going to happen. Any such product has to be completely developed and working before putting a price on it.
How about a "developer corner" subforum where offers, requests, and general programming and freelancing discussion could go?
@deank
Every forum needs a resident troll on your level of excellence. Legends need no tag.
Amitz, a very stable genius (it's true!) and Grand Rectumfier of the official LESLOS® (LES League of Shitposters).
Certified braindead since 1974 and still perfectly happy.
corey said: I also used the evidence from the outside chat program when a freelancer tried to screw me by billing extra saying I agreed to it and they took it into account when deciding in my favor.
This is news to me. Perhaps this has changed over the years.
(Edit: To clarify, this was very unambiguously ruled out as a possibility in the terms of service for every big freelancing site back when I was still looking at those.)
seriesn said: What I meant by limiting was, certain stuff, such as node migration, can be done with 1 single script and might not require any manual intervention
At that point the question becomes why someone is even offering it as a service, if it's evidently automated already anyway.
willie said: Joepie91 is great but he should charge a lot more than he does ;-).
I'm very carefully increasing my price over time The main thing I'm trying to avoid is landing in the 'enterprise' pricing tier, where I have to deal with big faceless corporations that don't care about quality and where I have to navigate internal politics. I much prefer working with individuals and small businesses, but those generally have a limited budget.
willie said: I once floated the idea of a bunch of hosts getting together to fund development of a new control panel though, and basically it's not going to happen. Any such product has to be completely developed and working before putting a price on it.
I still think that there might be a chance to pull this off, without developing the entire thing upfront. It'd still be a lot of work though, and probably require a lot of diplomacy that I personally don't currently have the time for. So yeah, if someone wants to pick up the political/business side of that, I'd still be interested... until then, CVM remains a "whenever I feel like it" project for me
Nice idea :-) I've never advertised my services on LE* before (for various reasons) but it's not a secret that I'm a freelancer (not a registered business)
I offer quick and easy websites, consulting, server management, tech support and bad jokes.
Most of my business has been word of mouth, this could be an interesting opportunity for a lot of people..
@AnthonySmith said:
cant tell if trolling or sense of humor bypass, maybe that is the point you were trying to make all along, well played?
I, on behalf of other countless trolls, implore thee to consider the troll tag. Trolls need love & attention as well. Without trolls, there is no lowend spirit. And without lowend spirit, there is no decent PMS to be had.
You don't want highend PMS. I mean, just look at Trump and Brexit.
@AnthonySmith While I liked the idea, the sites live fiverr can ensure that a fair policy, failed delivery, monitoring, reminding etc.
IMHO, it may be too much hassle for LES to handle unpleasant experiences which is likely to happen [we are human].
I recommend, not to do here, but you may try with strong process and website and team behind support you.
Comments
@AnthonySmith
Do you feel, we would need hosting related services as well, probably a tag called
saas(Software as a Service)For example, I use the following(and most use them), they are not shared/vps hosting providers but see a lot of related offers and requests on this forum(and the old one), we could initially limit the categories to the following as they are mostly hosting industry related.
$7/h would make sense
I am willing to pay 7 Rus rubles.
♻ Amitz day is October 21.
♻ Join Nigh sect by adopting my avatar. Let us spread the joys of the end.
That's not true. I talk to all of my freelancers outside of those sites, because it is required to communicate with our team on our company chat platform. I also used the evidence from the outside chat program when a freelancer tried to screw me by billing extra saying I agreed to it and they took it into account when deciding in my favor.
Why would I look for an independent escrow service when there are freelance sites that already specialize in this and give me way more insight into the actual work being done? Also, why would you be so against working on one of those sites if the employer is paying all of the fees? I don't require my freelancers to work through those sites indefinitely, when they gain my trust I allow them to track their time on their own and bill me for it.
When I was a freelancer there were several employers I worked for that did it this way as well. I had some very good jobs through there and I never 'raced to the bottom'.
I agree to disagree. Granted that $ amount was just an example and by no mean, a set standard, we also have to take into account that, not every freelancer's work quality equals yours. Minimum wages might be higher in some places, while lower in some.
What I meant by limiting was, certain stuff, such as node migration, can be done with 1 single script and might not require any manual intervention and setting a standard price point would be more beneficial to the community and once again, a dev doesn't have to offer all for less and should be available for custom quote, at the same time (Just like we all have higher packages on our website that we don't promote here), there should be an entry price point that would also limit "overcharging" for average quality of work. I mean, this is a budget conscious community after all.
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My 2 cents: excellent, keep it simple (and flexible) - and let's see how it goes.
HS4LIFE (+ (* 3 4) (* 5 6))
Might want to check the rules on that and reconsider your position
https://inceptionhosting.com
Please do not use the PM system here for Inception Hosting support issues.
Yes maybe, taking things one day at a time around here but that did come up (just today twice).
@everyone I think it sis pretty obvious that this is not something we are going to get common ground on across 100% of the user base, but lets just let it play out a little, if it add's no value and is in any way detrimental (tangibly) it will be removed.
I appreciate some people like safety nets for their safety nets and check 3 times but I tend to not let 'what might happen' stop me from trying something when there is a potential benefit with relatively low risk.
I know there are plenty of sites out there for free lance work but you are not likely to go to fiverr or odesk to find a support agent or someone to write a simple bash script for you, also as I said this means that people who offer training and development for example can post adverts here that people may well genuinely be interested in if I am wrong, this will fail and I will remove it, no big deal.
As I said I will tweak it as we go and as required, maybe a maximum price for adverts but not for requests however I figured by restricting it to a single advert per month that was some balance.
Asking a freelancer who's effort is based on time not resource to put a fixed price on something seems impossible to manage because their are so many different things that could be and it gets so granular.
A logo - $7 total?, $7 per/hour? $50?
A perl script - $7, per/hour, per line, per function, what if it is actually an entire app with a UI based in perl, still max $50 even though it could take 100 hours minimum?
Or are people suggesting we simply limit the market place and by extension what offers can ever sensibly be made, would you not rather let it play out for a few months, see all the "I knew that would happen" and "ooh loop hole" and "we cant have that" and "that is amazing" events happen and make an educated rule set around it from that?
I am not trying to say I am absolutely right on any of this for the record, just part of the conversation.
https://inceptionhosting.com
Please do not use the PM system here for Inception Hosting support issues.
I am a troll. Nothing will ever alter that fact.
♻ Amitz day is October 21.
♻ Join Nigh sect by adopting my avatar. Let us spread the joys of the end.
https://inceptionhosting.com
Please do not use the PM system here for Inception Hosting support issues.
I feel kinda sad that you want me to leave.
Oh, well, I shall comply.
♻ Amitz day is October 21.
♻ Join Nigh sect by adopting my avatar. Let us spread the joys of the end.
I think attempting to apply a rate limit early on would just stifle a vast amount of potential out of it and dictate an insane race to the bottom as discussed earlier that would make the system mostly worthless for projects larger then the smallest of things.
The way i would do it would have some form of vetting so that the tag is atleast somewhat "trusted" with a requirement to maintain some level of activity or it would be revoked.
Joepie91 is great but he should charge a lot more than he does ;-). Overall nothing against this in principle but I figure this audience is way too cheap for freelancing here to be worthwhile. I see huge amounts of money going to products that are not so impressive and that seems a lot more promising from the dev side. I once floated the idea of a bunch of hosts getting together to fund development of a new control panel though, and basically it's not going to happen. Any such product has to be completely developed and working before putting a price on it.
How about a "developer corner" subforum where offers, requests, and general programming and freelancing discussion could go?
cant tell if trolling or sense of humor bypass, maybe that is the point you were trying to make all along, well played?
https://inceptionhosting.com
Please do not use the PM system here for Inception Hosting support issues.
I like that idea.
https://inceptionhosting.com
Please do not use the PM system here for Inception Hosting support issues.
@deank
Every forum needs a resident troll on your level of excellence. Legends need no tag.
Amitz, a very stable genius (it's true!) and Grand Rectumfier of the official LESLOS® (LES League of Shitposters).
Certified braindead since 1974 and still perfectly happy.
I like the idea, brings add value to the forum.
https://clients.mrvm.net
This is news to me. Perhaps this has changed over the years.
(Edit: To clarify, this was very unambiguously ruled out as a possibility in the terms of service for every big freelancing site back when I was still looking at those.)
At that point the question becomes why someone is even offering it as a service, if it's evidently automated already anyway.
I'm very carefully increasing my price over time
The main thing I'm trying to avoid is landing in the 'enterprise' pricing tier, where I have to deal with big faceless corporations that don't care about quality and where I have to navigate internal politics. I much prefer working with individuals and small businesses, but those generally have a limited budget.
I still think that there might be a chance to pull this off, without developing the entire thing upfront. It'd still be a lot of work though, and probably require a lot of diplomacy that I personally don't currently have the time for. So yeah, if someone wants to pick up the political/business side of that, I'd still be interested... until then, CVM remains a "whenever I feel like it" project for me
Nice idea :-) I've never advertised my services on LE* before (for various reasons) but it's not a secret that I'm a freelancer (not a registered business)
I offer quick and easy websites, consulting, server management, tech support and bad jokes.
Most of my business has been word of mouth, this could be an interesting opportunity for a lot of people..
Get the best deal on your next VPS or Shared/Reseller hosting from RacknerdTracker.com - The original aff garden.
And can we PLEASE get @deank a troll tag!
Get the best deal on your next VPS or Shared/Reseller hosting from RacknerdTracker.com - The original aff garden.
I've lanced a few boils in my day.
My pronouns are asshole/asshole/asshole. I will give you the same courtesy.
Fuck that reminds me of that Megarace game from the 90's "Lance Boyle" was the guy in it..
Get the best deal on your next VPS or Shared/Reseller hosting from RacknerdTracker.com - The original aff garden.
That was an awesome game.
My pronouns are asshole/asshole/asshole. I will give you the same courtesy.
Sounds like a plan, to me.
lowendinfo.com had no interest.
@AnthonySmith - seriously a "Registered Troll" tag could take the art and science to a whole 'nother level
And
for a shoptalk section as suggested by @willie
HS4LIFE (+ (* 3 4) (* 5 6))
Do we allow cashback offers for freelance services? @SpryServers_Tab
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I, on behalf of other countless trolls, implore thee to consider the troll tag. Trolls need love & attention as well. Without trolls, there is no lowend spirit. And without lowend spirit, there is no decent PMS to be had.
You don't want highend PMS. I mean, just look at Trump and Brexit.
♻ Amitz day is October 21.
♻ Join Nigh sect by adopting my avatar. Let us spread the joys of the end.
@AnthonySmith While I liked the idea, the sites live fiverr can ensure that a fair policy, failed delivery, monitoring, reminding etc.
IMHO, it may be too much hassle for LES to handle unpleasant experiences which is likely to happen [we are human].
I recommend, not to do here, but you may try with strong process and website and team behind support you.
Are Robot-assisted surgery done in dental field at your realm? if so you can be a real freelancer
LMAO. Crackback only.
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