@vyas said: CF free tier for me does not work well. The traffic is routed via Germany or UK on multiple occasions..
That's interesting. But yeah, not using cloudflare can be better if your server is geographically close to you. I felt like the only way to beat cloudflare on a global scale is if you ran a high availability setup, so I just stuck with cloudflare.
@bikegremlin said: I would also add that there are good, and poor quality shared, as well as VPS providers.I've seen WP sites run noticeably (and, definitely measurably) faster on a good shared hosting (with LiteSpeed), compared to a VPS.
I agree that shared can sometimes be better. However, my claim was that VPS gives you better performance per dollar. Spend the same amount of money on shared hosting and a VPS, and 99% of the time the VPS will give you better performance on the same website.
Your site briefly touches on overselling. However, the reality is the situation is usually much, much worse on shared hosting environments because there's gonna be resellers who fill up those servers. You said on your blog that a host could sell 64 plans of 2 GB ram on a server with 64 GB ram and 12 threads. Okay, for the sake of argument, I'll accept that as fact. However, among some of the shared hosts which you use, I am aware that they use servers with 8 threads and 32 GB ram, and they sell reseller plans on those servers. You could be looking at THOUSANDS of accounts on ONE server. Then, there's the issue of the stack. What you get with litespeed etc. on a default softaculous wordpress install is a much slower stack than stacks which you can run on a VPS.
There's many more details which can be discussed, but I cannot imagine a shared plan doing better than a VPS provided they have the same price tag. The stress tests which @vyas did show a clear picture here. It's a shame you can't really tell what the average response time is on shared because of the failed requests.
Have you checked server load stats?
Because, everytime I check, server CPU is not even 50% loaded (unless cPanel server load info is lying).
Also, for WordPress, depending on how one does the caching (and other optimizations), LiteSpeed that comes with shared hosting (included in the price) can give a lot of "bang for the buck".
Same goes for the antivirus software, and the fact that someone else is worrying about the security and server maintenance. On a cheap VPS (unmanaged) - you're on your own. On a managed VPS - less so, but you pay a lot more.
One more point. My website doesn't seem to use more than 512 MB of RAM. However, if I wanted to run a control panel (which makes things a lot easier, more convenient) - I'd have to get a VPS with more RAM = more expensive, just for that.
@bikegremlin said: Because, everytime I check, server CPU is not even 50% loaded (unless cPanel server load info is lying).
It probably isn't lying. Just curious, do you mean load on your cpanel account or on WHM? Someone on LET said that shared environments don't use more than 1 thread, so it could be a case where your account is allocated 2 threads but it can't ever exceed 50%.
@bikegremlin said: Also, for WordPress, depending on how one does the caching (and other optimizations), LiteSpeed that comes with shared hosting (included in the price) can give a lot of "bang for the buck".
Not really. Litespeed is only a good solution in the sense that you don't have to do anything to enable it. Also, wordpress caching helps a lot when it comes to rendering pages for visitors. But it doesn't help that much for the admin backend. Honestly, the main reason why I dislike using shared hosting is because the wordpress backend tends to run very slowly on shared hosting.
@bikegremlin said: Same goes for the antivirus software, and the fact that someone else is worrying about the security and server maintenance.
The antivirus scanners don't do much in my opinion. Anyway, since we are talking wordpress, most of the time, people get hacked because they had some insecure plugin. In which case, you run the same risks on both shared and on VPS.
@bikegremlin said: One more point. My website doesn't seem to use more than 512 MB of RAM. However, if I wanted to run a control panel (which makes things a lot easier, more convenient) - I'd have to get a VPS with more RAM = more expensive, just for that.
Yeah, but how often do you use a control panel? You could probably make do without one, or you could make do by using swap. Either way, it's not uncommon for people to pay $5-10/month for shared hosting. For that price, you can easily get 1 GB of ram almost anywhere. Yes, there are dirt cheap shared plans going for $1-2/month but the same is true for VPS.
You get less performance but more convenience on shared hosting than running a VPS. But, what kind of convenience are we talking about here? Probably things like being able to use plugins like jetbackup, or being able to ask support for help with simple tasks.
@bikegremlin said: Because, everytime I check, server CPU is not even 50% loaded (unless cPanel server load info is lying).
It probably isn't lying. Just curious, do you mean load on your cpanel account or on WHM? Someone on LET said that shared environments don't use more than 1 thread, so it could be a case where your account is allocated 2 threads but it can't ever exceed 50%.
I mean server load stats shown using PhpSysInfo (link with the pic), or within cPanel/WHM (cPanel itself shows it to users/customers), as shown here:
@bikegremlin said: Also, for WordPress, depending on how one does the caching (and other optimizations), LiteSpeed that comes with shared hosting (included in the price) can give a lot of "bang for the buck".
Not really. Litespeed is only a good solution in the sense that you don't have to do anything to enable it. Also, wordpress caching helps a lot when it comes to rendering pages for visitors. But it doesn't help that much for the admin backend. Honestly, the main reason why I dislike using shared hosting is because the wordpress backend tends to run very slowly on shared hosting.
Yes, caching doesn't do much for the backend. Also, when doing major changes in post categories for example (with hundred or more existing posts), it does put some load on the CPU and DB I/O (shown in the usage stats, on poor quality shared hosting this even gives 5xx errors on the frontend for a few minutes).
Can't argue with your backend speed experience. I personally haven't noticed it being slow on decent shared hosting. But haven't done much comparison with VPS - to check it side by side and notice any (noticeable & measurable) difference.
@bikegremlin said: Same goes for the antivirus software, and the fact that someone else is worrying about the security and server maintenance.
The antivirus scanners don't do much in my opinion. Anyway, since we are talking wordpress, most of the time, people get hacked because they had some insecure plugin. In which case, you run the same risks on both shared and on VPS.
I agree. Still, it's nice to know that there are fewer potential problem causes. Also, it's very nice to get notified as soon as possible (suppose AV software can help with that, at least to a degree).
@bikegremlin said: One more point. My website doesn't seem to use more than 512 MB of RAM. However, if I wanted to run a control panel (which makes things a lot easier, more convenient) - I'd have to get a VPS with more RAM = more expensive, just for that.
Yeah, but how often do you use a control panel? You could probably make do without one, or you could make do by using swap. Either way, it's not uncommon for people to pay $5-10/month for shared hosting. For that price, you can easily get 1 GB of ram almost anywhere. Yes, there are dirt cheap shared plans going for $1-2/month but the same is true for VPS.
It depends. When doing development, I find one-click JetBackup restoration super convenient. Saves time and hassle.
Same goes for installing WP, and file manager from a control panel is fast and convenient to use.
Once a site is set up, I suppose I don't really need a control panel.
You get less performance but more convenience on shared hosting than running a VPS. But, what kind of convenience are we talking about here? Probably things like being able to use plugins like jetbackup, or being able to ask support for help with simple tasks.
In addition to the above noted pluses of a "one-click" control panel:
Scripts like Softaculous make installation, and cloning/migration super easy (saves time and hassle).
0 worries about firewall, security & maintenance in general. It's someone else's job.
Some great discussions overnight! Great going , folks..
On the space required for WordPress issue:
This facebook post cracked me up. Very typical unfortunately.
The guy has a Plan on Siteground and 20 GB space, he has no space left to convert staging site to live
JetBackup definitely one of the perks of HM. But I think @MikePT added it as a feature now, too?
Couldn't get it to work properly (probably due to not still patched to work with DirectAdmin control panel).
@ykmper said:
Initially, it wouldn't show me daily backups either. Now it shows me 7 restore points (daily) to choose from. Backup to remote, unfortunately, doesn't work yet. I think @MikePT is on it though
We are glad to see your interests and use of JetBackup. We are interested to hear more about you not being able to get JetBackup to work on DirectAdmin and not be able to backup to remote destinations. As you may be aware, JetBackup 5.0.X and 5.1.X are now both available on BETA and EDGE tiers respectively. Both JetBackup 5.0.X and 5.1.X support have support for DirectAdmin Panel with the main difference being 5.1.X was more recently released and now supports backups to S3 Compatible destinations and utilizes our brand new core engine.
We highly suggest reaching out to our support team at [email protected] or leave a post in our forums at JetBackup DirectAdmin Forums and we would be more than happy to assist with any questions you may have. We appreciate any and all feedback from our users as it helps us deliver more secure and reliable software.
JetBackup definitely one of the perks of HM. But I think @MikePT added it as a feature now, too?
Couldn't get it to work properly (probably due to not still patched to work with DirectAdmin control panel).
@ykmper said:
Initially, it wouldn't show me daily backups either. Now it shows me 7 restore points (daily) to choose from. Backup to remote, unfortunately, doesn't work yet. I think @MikePT is on it though
We are glad to see your interests and use of JetBackup. We are interested to hear more about you not being able to get JetBackup to work on DirectAdmin and not be able to backup to remote destinations. As you may be aware, JetBackup 5.0.X and 5.1.X are now both available on BETA and EDGE tiers respectively. Both JetBackup 5.0.X and 5.1.X support have support for DirectAdmin Panel with the main difference being 5.1.X was more recently released and now supports backups to S3 Compatible destinations and utilizes our brand new core engine.
We highly suggest reaching out to our support team at [email protected] or leave a post in our forums at JetBackup DirectAdmin Forums and we would be more than happy to assist with any questions you may have. We appreciate any and all feedback from our users as it helps us deliver more secure and reliable software.
Best Regards,
The JetApps Team
First and foremost - thanks for reaching out.
I had given up on JetBackup (and Softaculous for that matter) with DirectAdmin.
They work very well on cPanel, but last time I tried on the DirectAdmin hosting I'm using, they wouldn't work.
If the app is patched for DirectAdmin, I'd first give it another go, then, if it doesn't work, check with the provider, before contacting JetApps Team (does that make sense?).
I had given up on JetBackup (and Softaculous for that matter) with DirectAdmin.
They work very well on cPanel, but last time I tried on the DirectAdmin hosting I'm using, they wouldn't work.
If the app is patched for DirectAdmin, I'd first give it another go, then, if it doesn't work, check with the provider, before contacting JetApps Team (does that make sense?).
We are sorry to hear your experience with JetBackup 5 for DirectAdmin was not the same as JetBackup 4 for cPanel. We understand using JetBackup 5 while it is in EDGE has potential bugs that need to be fixed. This is why we appreciate any feedback from the community so that we can help identify these issues and get our stable release out faster. With that said we do hope to see you trying JetBackup 5 for DirectAdmin again when it reaches STABLE tier, which on our current roadmap is planned for release within 6-9 months.
I had given up on JetBackup (and Softaculous for that matter) with DirectAdmin.
They work very well on cPanel, but last time I tried on the DirectAdmin hosting I'm using, they wouldn't work.
If the app is patched for DirectAdmin, I'd first give it another go, then, if it doesn't work, check with the provider, before contacting JetApps Team (does that make sense?).
We are sorry to hear your experience with JetBackup 5 for DirectAdmin was not the same as JetBackup 4 for cPanel. We understand using JetBackup 5 while it is in EDGE has potential bugs that need to be fixed. This is why we appreciate any feedback from the community so that we can help identify these issues and get our stable release out faster. With that said we do hope to see you trying JetBackup 5 for DirectAdmin again when it reaches STABLE tier, which on our current roadmap is planned for release within 6-9 months.
Best Regards,
The JetApps Team.
Waiting JetBackup stable for Directadmin. Hope everything will be as planned.
I had given up on JetBackup (and Softaculous for that matter) with DirectAdmin.
They work very well on cPanel, but last time I tried on the DirectAdmin hosting I'm using, they wouldn't work.
If the app is patched for DirectAdmin, I'd first give it another go, then, if it doesn't work, check with the provider, before contacting JetApps Team (does that make sense?).
We are sorry to hear your experience with JetBackup 5 for DirectAdmin was not the same as JetBackup 4 for cPanel. We understand using JetBackup 5 while it is in EDGE has potential bugs that need to be fixed. This is why we appreciate any feedback from the community so that we can help identify these issues and get our stable release out faster. With that said we do hope to see you trying JetBackup 5 for DirectAdmin again when it reaches STABLE tier, which on our current roadmap is planned for release within 6-9 months.
Best Regards,
The JetApps Team.
Waiting JetBackup stable for Directadmin. Hope everything will be as planned.
In software development, it is often the case that the last 10% of a project take almost as much time as the first 90%.
Still, the important thing is that it's being worked on, because that way it will get done - sooner, or later.
Really looking forward to JetBackup on DirectAdmin. It makes things super-convenient.
Cyberpanel is developed by the Litespeed company. Vender straight down to the match may not be a good thing.
Not shure if that is necessarily a bad thing. WP themselves offer hosting.
My thoughts go in a different direction. Litespeed could get acquired by a VC or even Automattic.
If it is the former, then there could be price increases coming down the line.
They’ve been offering it for a while now. Think they even relaunched their cloud dashboard which used to be free but is now only available in conjunction with their hosting products. I think they also offer the ability to use OLS as a reverse proxy to Apache as well.
The cloud dashboard offers central server monitor, with some maintenance tools such as the ability to run database optimisation remotely.
@Intelpentium0 said:
Thinking to move a wp site from cpanel to an idle 3gb Ram vps.
Shall I install CWP and move?
Please suggest all 'free' ways.
If you are fine not having a panel, there's many other good options that work better and are well maintained.
Like bleeding edge? Go centminmod. Otherwise, you can pick something like easyengine/webinoly etc. If you really must have a panel, then probably virtualmin/webmin.
@Intelpentium0 said:
Thinking to move a wp site from cpanel to an idle 3gb Ram vps.
Shall I install CWP and move?
Please suggest all 'free' ways.
Is this for a personal site?
No. A small news site. Postie plugin is a must. It will automatically check for mail from a certain address once in every 10 minutes and import news. So only a panel without webmail will NOT be ok.
✓✓Only shared hosting-both DA and cPanel Still in 2006
No. A small news site. Postie plugin is a must. It will automatically check for mail from a certain address once in every 10 minutes and import news. So only a panel without webmail will NOT be ok.
you dont need webmail for this plugin imap/pop is enough, mxroute + wordops will work like a charm
So, sort of Wordpress related, as I mostly run WP sites these days ... I noticed lots of the panels and scripts seems to suggest or add Redis by default?
Can someone explain to me, sort of simplified, when it's needed/a good idea to run Redis, and when not to bother?
@Intelpentium0 said:
Ok. Will go for wordops then.. In LET, I saw about cipi and was waiting for @vyas review.
only for one wordpress cipi is overkill if you are planning to run multiple tenant on a one server then you can use cipi
@flips said:
So, sort of Wordpress related, as I mostly run WP sites these days ... I noticed lots of the panels and scripts seems to suggest or add Redis by default?
Can someone explain to me, sort of simplified, when it's needed/a good idea to run Redis, and when not to bother?
From my experience, if you are using Nginx then Nginx FastCGI Cache is the fastest one. It work on server level. You only need nginx_helper module to flush/purge the cache.
⭕ A simple uptime dashboard using UptimeRobot API https://upy.duo.ovh
⭕ Currently using VPS from BuyVM, GreenCloudVPS, Gullo's, Hetzner, HostHatch, InceptionHosting, LetBox, MaxKVM, MrVM, VirMach.
Yes, @wordpress, I've read that WordOps explanation and others ... But Redis is not just another general cache, as It says "object store"? Won't it's effectiveness depend on content type/setup?
(There's an optional redis object cache plugin for WP.)
... Or to put it simpler: Should I install Redis no matter what kinda content the WP install hosts? And no matter if the stack uses LScache or some other general cache (utilizing Varnish or whatever)?
Comments
Have you checked server load stats?
Because, everytime I check, server CPU is not even 50% loaded (unless cPanel server load info is lying).
Also, for WordPress, depending on how one does the caching (and other optimizations), LiteSpeed that comes with shared hosting (included in the price) can give a lot of "bang for the buck".
Same goes for the antivirus software, and the fact that someone else is worrying about the security and server maintenance. On a cheap VPS (unmanaged) - you're on your own. On a managed VPS - less so, but you pay a lot more.
One more point. My website doesn't seem to use more than 512 MB of RAM. However, if I wanted to run a control panel (which makes things a lot easier, more convenient) - I'd have to get a VPS with more RAM = more expensive, just for that.
So there are pros and cons.
BikeGremlin I/O
Mostly WordPress ™
It probably isn't lying. Just curious, do you mean load on your cpanel account or on WHM? Someone on LET said that shared environments don't use more than 1 thread, so it could be a case where your account is allocated 2 threads but it can't ever exceed 50%.
Not really. Litespeed is only a good solution in the sense that you don't have to do anything to enable it. Also, wordpress caching helps a lot when it comes to rendering pages for visitors. But it doesn't help that much for the admin backend. Honestly, the main reason why I dislike using shared hosting is because the wordpress backend tends to run very slowly on shared hosting.
The antivirus scanners don't do much in my opinion. Anyway, since we are talking wordpress, most of the time, people get hacked because they had some insecure plugin. In which case, you run the same risks on both shared and on VPS.
Yeah, but how often do you use a control panel? You could probably make do without one, or you could make do by using swap. Either way, it's not uncommon for people to pay $5-10/month for shared hosting. For that price, you can easily get 1 GB of ram almost anywhere. Yes, there are dirt cheap shared plans going for $1-2/month but the same is true for VPS.
You get less performance but more convenience on shared hosting than running a VPS. But, what kind of convenience are we talking about here? Probably things like being able to use plugins like jetbackup, or being able to ask support for help with simple tasks.
Comparison between shared and vps never end.
I do everything on VPS these day, not because cheap or better... Just because I have many idling.
I have not touch directadmin till now. Maybe I need to find some time to check it.
Action and Reaction in history
I mean server load stats shown using PhpSysInfo (link with the pic), or within cPanel/WHM (cPanel itself shows it to users/customers), as shown here:
Yes, caching doesn't do much for the backend. Also, when doing major changes in post categories for example (with hundred or more existing posts), it does put some load on the CPU and DB I/O (shown in the usage stats, on poor quality shared hosting this even gives 5xx errors on the frontend for a few minutes).
Can't argue with your backend speed experience. I personally haven't noticed it being slow on decent shared hosting. But haven't done much comparison with VPS - to check it side by side and notice any (noticeable & measurable) difference.
I agree. Still, it's nice to know that there are fewer potential problem causes. Also, it's very nice to get notified as soon as possible (suppose AV software can help with that, at least to a degree).
It depends. When doing development, I find one-click JetBackup restoration super convenient. Saves time and hassle.
Same goes for installing WP, and file manager from a control panel is fast and convenient to use.
Once a site is set up, I suppose I don't really need a control panel.
In addition to the above noted pluses of a "one-click" control panel:
BikeGremlin I/O
Mostly WordPress ™
Some great discussions overnight! Great going , folks..
On the space required for WordPress issue:
This facebook post cracked me up. Very typical unfortunately.
The guy has a Plan on Siteground and 20 GB space, he has no space left to convert staging site to live
VPS reviews | | MicroLXC | English is my nth language.
Hello @bikegremlin and @ykmper,
We are glad to see your interests and use of JetBackup. We are interested to hear more about you not being able to get JetBackup to work on DirectAdmin and not be able to backup to remote destinations. As you may be aware, JetBackup 5.0.X and 5.1.X are now both available on BETA and EDGE tiers respectively. Both JetBackup 5.0.X and 5.1.X support have support for DirectAdmin Panel with the main difference being 5.1.X was more recently released and now supports backups to S3 Compatible destinations and utilizes our brand new core engine.
We highly suggest reaching out to our support team at [email protected] or leave a post in our forums at JetBackup DirectAdmin Forums and we would be more than happy to assist with any questions you may have. We appreciate any and all feedback from our users as it helps us deliver more secure and reliable software.
Best Regards,
The JetApps Team
First and foremost - thanks for reaching out.
I had given up on JetBackup (and Softaculous for that matter) with DirectAdmin.
They work very well on cPanel, but last time I tried on the DirectAdmin hosting I'm using, they wouldn't work.
If the app is patched for DirectAdmin, I'd first give it another go, then, if it doesn't work, check with the provider, before contacting JetApps Team (does that make sense?).
I documented my use with cPanel for automated website backups to a remote destination using JetBackup. This works flawlessly (knock on wood
).
BikeGremlin I/O
Mostly WordPress ™
We are sorry to hear your experience with JetBackup 5 for DirectAdmin was not the same as JetBackup 4 for cPanel. We understand using JetBackup 5 while it is in EDGE has potential bugs that need to be fixed. This is why we appreciate any feedback from the community so that we can help identify these issues and get our stable release out faster. With that said we do hope to see you trying JetBackup 5 for DirectAdmin again when it reaches STABLE tier, which on our current roadmap is planned for release within 6-9 months.
Best Regards,
The JetApps Team.
Waiting JetBackup stable for Directadmin. Hope everything will be as planned.
In software development, it is often the case that the last 10% of a project take almost as much time as the first 90%.
Still, the important thing is that it's being worked on, because that way it will get done - sooner, or later.
Really looking forward to JetBackup on DirectAdmin. It makes things super-convenient.
BikeGremlin I/O
Mostly WordPress ™
Now the developers of Cyber Panl join the WP Hosting bandwagon, using Litespeed. Good way to monetize if they can pull it off.
https://www.cyberhosting.org/pricing/
VPS reviews | | MicroLXC | English is my nth language.
Cyberpanel is developed by the Litespeed company. Vender straight down to the match may not be a good thing.
Action and Reaction in history
Not shure if that is necessarily a bad thing. WP themselves offer hosting.
My thoughts go in a different direction. Litespeed could get acquired by a VC or even Automattic.
If it is the former, then there could be price increases coming down the line.
VPS reviews | | MicroLXC | English is my nth language.
They’ve been offering it for a while now. Think they even relaunched their cloud dashboard which used to be free but is now only available in conjunction with their hosting products. I think they also offer the ability to use OLS as a reverse proxy to Apache as well.
The cloud dashboard offers central server monitor, with some maintenance tools such as the ability to run database optimisation remotely.
Free WordPress hosting by porkbun.
Thinking to move a wp site from cpanel to an idle 3gb Ram vps.
Shall I install CWP and move?
Please suggest all 'free' ways.
✓✓Only shared hosting-both DA and cPanel Still in 2006
I'd rather install ISPConfig/Keyhelp or HestiaCP or Webmin? CWP screams exploit and buggy.
Ympker's Shared/Reseller Hosting Comparison Chart, Ympker's VPN LTD Comparison, Uptime.is, Ympker's GitHub.
If it's only one WP, why bother with a panel?
Install distro of choice and migrate files and database ...
Is this for a personal site?
VPS reviews | | MicroLXC | English is my nth language.
If you are fine not having a panel, there's many other good options that work better and are well maintained.
Like bleeding edge? Go centminmod. Otherwise, you can pick something like easyengine/webinoly etc. If you really must have a panel, then probably virtualmin/webmin.
No. A small news site. Postie plugin is a must. It will automatically check for mail from a certain address once in every 10 minutes and import news. So only a panel without webmail will NOT be ok.
✓✓Only shared hosting-both DA and cPanel Still in 2006
You need a panel because you need to fetch email using a plugin? Sounds like overkill ...
Not really..
To suspend it on time of non payment automatically via whmcs..it's a client site?
✓✓Only shared hosting-both DA and cPanel Still in 2006
you dont need webmail for this plugin imap/pop is enough, mxroute + wordops will work like a charm
Ok. Will go for wordops then.. In LET, I saw about cipi and was waiting for @vyas review.
✓✓Only shared hosting-both DA and cPanel Still in 2006
VPSNoobs by @AK_KWH is [based on Cipi](https://amarvyas.in/vpsnoobs-server-management-panel/ "Review of VPSNoobs by A Vyas).
VPS reviews | | MicroLXC | English is my nth language.
So, sort of Wordpress related, as I mostly run WP sites these days ... I noticed lots of the panels and scripts seems to suggest or add Redis by default?
Can someone explain to me, sort of simplified, when it's needed/a good idea to run Redis, and when not to bother?
only for one wordpress cipi is overkill if you are planning to run multiple tenant on a one server then you can use cipi
https://docs.wordops.net/faq/#what-is-the-best-caching-solution-for-wordpress
From my experience, if you are using Nginx then Nginx FastCGI Cache is the fastest one. It work on server level. You only need nginx_helper module to flush/purge the cache.
⭕ A simple uptime dashboard using UptimeRobot API https://upy.duo.ovh
⭕ Currently using VPS from BuyVM, GreenCloudVPS, Gullo's, Hetzner, HostHatch, InceptionHosting, LetBox, MaxKVM, MrVM, VirMach.
Yes, @wordpress, I've read that WordOps explanation and others ... But Redis is not just another general cache, as It says "object store"? Won't it's effectiveness depend on content type/setup?
(There's an optional redis object cache plugin for WP.)
... Or to put it simpler: Should I install Redis no matter what kinda content the WP install hosts? And no matter if the stack uses LScache or some other general cache (utilizing Varnish or whatever)?